Red to Lilac

[Syann]

Here's one for all you cat genetic types.....

What would you get if you put a female lilac to a red boy???

I read all the posts about colours/genetics a while back, but cant remember how this combo would work. :scratch:

[Syann]

Anyone??????? :-|

[audrey]

tortie girls, red and maybe lilac boys, depending what's behind the boy, as she's lilac it will depend what colours the red is carrying.

[Syann]

Thankyou....

[adara]

would you really get red boys? I thought you only got red boys when mum was tortie or red ?

[Banana]

No.. you cant get red boys from a solid girl mating.. only a tortie or red girl can produce red boys..

I only found this out recently when I promised someone a red boy from star's litter to a red boy...:oops:

[Syann]

oh dear, it's very complicated!

[Mystic-Tree]

who does the stud belong to? They should be able to tell you what colours are carried and what can be expected. Otherwise you have a good test mating by using a lilac girl (lilac being double recessive).

xx

[audrey]

Never done a red mating so I was just working it like the other colours. :)

[Mystic-Tree]

red is complicated ... I don't understand it properly :(

xx

[xanthorn]

Without any further information, all you can know is you would get seal tortie girls and seal boys.

You could also get blues, chocolates, and lilac boys (or the equivalent torties in girls), depending on what he carries.

[Rebecca]

way over my head, but interesting !!!:toothy4:

[audrey]

Obviously I don't either, will have to learn though as my Devon is a Red silver spotty, but then again my friend Dominic is not bad on genetics so I'll just pick his brains. :)

[Mystic-Tree]

Without any further information, all you can know is you would get seal tortie girls and seal boys.

You could also get blues, chocolates, and lilac boys (or the equivalent torties in girls), depending on what he carries.

Is Red basically a hidden seal then?

xx
see I know very little about red!

[xanthorn]

Red is normally masking seal, yeah, as seal is the most common colour, being the dominant one.

One confusion is that red can also mask chocolate or cinnamon - as I understand it the colours are different to the trained eye, but it's not easy to tell.

So if this red stud is from, say, chocolate father x chocolate tortie mother, then he won't give any seals when mated to a lilac ... aah, the importance of pedigrees! :D

[Connie]

As I have understood it, the red colour is located on the X-chromosome, that is the chromosome that gives the female sex. A tortie could give her son the red colour, but a a father can not give his son red colour, since the chromosome that makes a boy a boy, is the Y chromosome.

Boys have one X and Y chromosome, XY, while girls have two Xs; XX.

So the red colour will have to come from the mother.

As far as I have understood it.

Connie

[audrey]

Red is normally masking seal, yeah, as seal is the most common colour, being the dominant one.

One confusion is that red can also mask chocolate or cinnamon - as I understand it the colours are different to the trained eye, but it's not easy to tell.

So if this red stud is from, say, chocolate father x chocolate tortie mother, then he won't give any seals when mated to a lilac ... aah, the importance of pedigrees! :D
I'm forever trying to tell people pedigrees are important, it's amazing how many people don't know their breeding cats pedigree.

[Mystic-Tree]

Red is normally masking seal, yeah, as seal is the most common colour, being the dominant one.

One confusion is that red can also mask chocolate or cinnamon - as I understand it the colours are different to the trained eye, but it's not easy to tell.

So if this red stud is from, say, chocolate father x chocolate tortie mother, then he won't give any seals when mated to a lilac ... aah, the importance of pedigrees! :D

That is what I would have expected. It was that you said that she WOULD get seals that confused me.

xx

[xanthorn]

Yeah, my first post should read "all you can ASSUME", not "all you can know" - but generally it is a safe bet to assume a red is masking seal unless you know otherwise.

[Banana]

I put my seal girl to a red and didnt get one seal... I got a blue tortie, choc tortie and a lilac boy!! :lol:

[Syann]

Cheers everybody.....

Just thinking about this now....So where do caramels come from?

[audrey]

They came about through Tabby being introduced to the pedigrees.

[Syann]

so to get a caramel, would that be a seal plus a dilute colour, and would one or other have to be a tabby point?

[audrey]

No it doesn't work like that, the colours don't work like a paintbox.

[Syann]

No it doesn't work like that, the colours don't work like a paintbox.

LOL!!!

[audrey]

Lilac and Blue in different breeds isn't the same colour, so when the tabby was introduced it changed the colour depending on which colour gene the cat inherited, someone else can probably explain it better.

[Syann]

oh i see....(sort of !).

So if i wanted to breed a caramel now, wjhat colours would i have to put together. I'm assuming that those colours, whatever they are, will also be dependent on their pedigrees (as with the reds)?

[audrey]

You could go to a Caramel stud.

[Syann]

They are gorgeous!!!

[billy/steve]

We brought a seal point girl into our red ori and he got 2 lilacs????Our boy carries cinnamon and chocolate??Do you think they could be caramels?

[audrey]

What do you think they are ?

[billy/steve]

We bred a red ori to a lilac point and got chocolates.

[noturb]

No.. you cant get red boys from a solid girl mating.. only a tortie or red girl can produce red boys..

I only found this out recently when I promised someone a red boy from star's litter to a red boy...:oops:

Hi,

Red is a sex linked gene and attaches to the X chromosomes of which the male has one X and the female has two as in XX,this means that the inheritance of the genes is a little more complex than other traits.
It is all to do with the orange gene O of which the male has only one and the females has two OO genes.

To simplify it`s as Anna says a tortie or red girl can produce red boys but a lilac to a red boy will produce tortie girls but not red boys.
Confused!!!!

Regards Rich

[myskancokatz]

No.. you cant get red boys from a solid girl mating.. only a tortie or red girl can produce red boys..

I only found this out recently when I promised someone a red boy from star's litter to a red boy...:oops:

********

Sorry Anna that is incorrect, you can get a red boy from a non red female. You have to have a male and female of the red series to produce a red female though:)

[myskancokatz]

Is Red basically a hidden seal then?

xx
see I know very little about red!

******

Hello Georgina - reds mask either seal/black or chocolate.

[Mystic-Tree]

******

Hello Georgina - reds mask either seal/black or chocolate.

but not blue or lilac? how odd!

xx

[myskancokatz]

[QUOTE=Connie]As I have understood it, the red colour is located on the X-chromosome, that is the chromosome that gives the female sex. A tortie could give her son the red colour, but a a father can not give his son red colour, since the chromosome that makes a boy a boy, is the Y chromosome.

Boys have one X and Y chromosome, XY, while girls have two Xs; XX.

So the red colour will have to come from the mother.

*******

Sorry Connie that is incorrect -

The red gene is a sex linked gene, and is carried on a sex chromosome. Not only is it responsible for the tortishell pattern, but also the specific relationship between colour and gender.

The domestic cat has 18 pairs of chromosomes,*which are identical to each other. There is an additional pair, which can differ in size, these are the sex chromosome, and are known as X and Y. In females, both the chromosomes are of equal size, and both are X, giving a genotype XX. In the male the genotype is XY with the Y chromosome being much smaller, than the X chromosome. All the eggs produced by the female will contain an X chromosome, whilst the males sperm, will contain either*X*or Y in equal numbers.

The gene responsible for red (orange) colouring, is carried on the X chromosome, its symbol is 'O' for orange. Males have only one gene for red so is 'O' or 'o', and the female has 2 genes and her genotype will be 'OO', 'Oo' or 'oo'. Cats with the genotype 'O' and 'OO', will be either Red, Cream or Apricot, depending on their further genotype. Cats possessing 'oo', will have no red colouring. Cats of geneotype 'Oo', will be tortishells, a mixture of red and non red colours, their colour determined by the rest of their genotype. Reds mask black, chocolate and cinnamon.

[myskancokatz]

Hi,

Red is a sex linked gene and attaches to the X chromosomes of which the male has one X and the female has two as in XX,this means that the inheritance of the genes is a little more complex than other traits.
It is all to do with the orange gene O of which the male has only one and the females has two OO genes.

To simplify it`s as Anna says a tortie or red girl can produce red boys but a lilac to a red boy will produce tortie girls but not red boys.
Confused!!!!

Regards Rich

*******

Just recently my Havana (chocolate) bred to a Red Spotty male produced a Red Spotty male boy:)

[myskancokatz]

We bred a red ori to a lilac point and got chocolates.

*****

This should mean your red oriental masks Chocolate. In some litter I with one red I haven't had a red in the litter.

[myskancokatz]

but not blue or lilac? how odd!

xx

************

Hello Georgina - carrying blue or lilac would depend on which colour the red cat is masking. If it masks seal and carries dilute, then it could produce blue kittens. The same with if it masks chocolate and carries dilute, then it would produce lilacs.

I should have added reds also masks Cinnamon:)

[Banana]

Hi CArole...

I took my seal girl to a red boy and got a blue, a choc and a lilac..

What is he masking then???

*very confused*

[Banana]

********

Sorry Anna that is incorrect, you can get a red boy from a non red female. You have to have a male and female of the red series to produce a red female though:)

Thats strange.. My breeder friend is adamant that a red boy x solid girl (not red) cannot produce a red boy kitten....

[Syann]

Anna...maybe we need a 'colour genetics' board, so we can keep these threads up. They'd be really handy to refer back to!!!!

[myskancokatz]

Thats strange.. My breeder friend is adamant that a red boy x solid girl (not red) cannot produce a red boy kitten....

*****

JUst recently my Havana (Chocolate) girl produced a red spotty male, so it has to be possible:)

At present I have a red male and a red female, but that is different as both parents are reds.

[myskancokatz]

Hi CArole...

I took my seal girl to a red boy and got a blue, a choc and a lilac..

What is he masking then???

*very confused*

*******

It looks like he is masking chocolate and carrying dilute.

[myskancokatz]

*******

It looks like he is masking chocolate and carrying dilute.

*****

Anna what colours have this red boy produced to other females. Just mulling over this one, and of course both sire and dam, could carry all four colours if dad is masking seal/black. Seeing seal/black is dominant though, I would have thought you would have had a seal in this litter though.

[myskancokatz]

Thats strange.. My breeder friend is adamant that a red boy x solid girl (not red) cannot produce a red boy kitten....

There is a photo of the little red male and his siblings, on the front of
http://justfelineshmm.tripod.com/ Just scroll down and the photo is on the right hand side:)

[xanthorn]

I took my seal girl to a red boy and got a blue, a choc and a lilac..

What is he masking then???

He could be masking either seal or chocolate (reds cannot mask blue or lilac, as they are both dilute colours. A cat with red and dilute is a cream - so cream masks blue or lilac/fawn, red masks seal or chocolate/cinnamon).

To produce blue, chocolate, and lilac, he has to at least carry both dilute and chocolate, you know that much (as does your girl).

Red boy x Solid girl would be, genetically:
OY x oo (the girl has two "o" genes, meaning not orange, the boy has one "O" orange gene, and a Y chromozone rather than another O or o).

So all kittens would inherit a "o" (not orange from their mother). Half the kittens will inherit a "O" from their dad - and so be Oo, tortie girls. The other half will inherit a "Y" from their dad - and so be oY, solid boys. A red boy is not possible unless something goes wrong genetically, or the mother is actually a tortie with so little red that they look solid.

[myskancokatz]

A red boy is not possible unless something goes wrong genetically, or the mother is actually a tortie with so little red that they look solid.

*******

There is no way mum is a tortie, as there is no red in the pedigree, and I cannot see any red on her. The red was definately a male, and he had a choc tortie sister in the litter.

[audrey]

Was he registered with the GCCF Carole ?

[xanthorn]

There is no way mum is a tortie, as there is no red in the pedigree, and I cannot see any red on her. The red was definately a male, and he had a choc tortie sister in the litter.

It will be interesting to find out the explanation for him, since he is a genetic impossibility :-) Will he be bred from, do you think, or is he a pet?

[audrey]

If the GCCF accepted his registration Toyah, then he won't be a genetic impossibility, I'm not arguing genetics, they make my head hurt, but don't they also say Torties are always girls, and that's been proven wrong.

[xanthorn]

If the GCCF accepted his registration Toyah, then he won't be a genetic impossibility, I'm not arguing genetics, they make my head hurt, but don't they also say Torties are always girls, and that's been proven wrong.

Well tortie males are another genetic impossiblility - they can only occur when something goes wrong in the formation of a kitten :-) For example - chimeras, klinefelter's syndrome, mosaicism, somatic mutations ... all these things can give tortie males, but a normal male cat with no genetic abnormalities is never a tortie.

This is the most interesting part of genetics - when something goes wrong!

[audrey]

( Well tortie males are another genetic impossiblility )

But they exist, quite a few of them.

[myskancokatz]

Was he registered with the GCCF Carole ?

*****

Hello Audrey - no I never had the chance to register him, as this was the little red kitten that was cannibalised by his mum at about 4.5 weeks of age. She never touched any of the others:(

[myskancokatz]

If the GCCF accepted his registration Toyah, then he won't be a genetic impossibility, I'm not arguing genetics, they make my head hurt, but don't they also say Torties are always girls, and that's been proven wrong.

********

Normally genetics don't bother me, but this one certainly has me thinking Audrey.

Never questioned his existence because 'he was there', just part of the litter. Tortie males do exist and if it wasn't for Kallibunker's (first Cornish Rex) Tortie brother, the Cornish Rex would have died out in their infancy! It was this male which took forward the breeding programme after Kallibunker died at an early age.

[Mystic-Tree]

It will be interesting to find out the explanation for him, since he is a genetic impossibility :-) Will he be bred from, do you think, or is he a pet?

Tortie males DO exist (about one in every 3000 male births).

Somatic mutation -- results in a male cat that appears to be tortoiseshell but isn't really; fertile.

XXY genotypes -- most tortoiseshells fall into this group. They have the extra chromosome and are sterile.

XX & XY mosaics -- complicated combinations of cell configuration occur in this type. They may be sterile, fertile or partially fertile.

Chimeric cats -- the fusion of two eggs. Fully fertile.

(source Robinsons)

[myskancokatz]

Well tortie males are another genetic impossiblility - they can only occur when something goes wrong in the formation of a kitten :-) For example - chimeras, klinefelter's syndrome, mosaicism, somatic mutations ... all these things can give tortie males, but a normal male cat with no genetic abnormalities is never a tortie.

This is the most interesting part of genetics - when something goes wrong!

Hi Toyah - I find all this interesting also:) Only wish the little one had survived and not been canibalised, then I could have had some checks on him to see what had happened!

As I mentioned in my reply to Audrey, the Rex which boosted the Cornish Rex breeding was a Tortie male and definately virile!:)

[myskancokatz]

Tortie males DO exist (about one in every 3000 male births).

Somatic mutation -- results in a male cat that appears to be tortoiseshell but isn't really; fertile.

XXY genotypes -- most tortoiseshells fall into this group. They have the extra chromosome and are sterile.

XX & XY mosaics -- complicated combinations of cell configuration occur in this type. They may be sterile, fertile or partially fertile.

Chimeric cats -- the fusion of two eggs. Fully fertile.

(source Robinsons)

******

Jan Cross has an infertile Cornish Rex male named Colin, his photo used to be on her web site, maybe still is.

Rastacats is her prefix.

[noturb]

Hi,

There will always be abnormalities along the way where genetics are concerned but we have to stay with the "norm" and so the answer to the question of mating a solid lilac to a red boy is that you do not get red boys.
If we use abnormalities as the argument then we might as well say that from a mating with sheep you can get two headed ones.
Tortie males happen but they are not the norm and so we must use the genetic codes to find out what colours to what colours will give.
We might as well say that an all 24 series to an all 24 series may give us a blue...the chances are not worth considering.

Rich

[xanthorn]

Tortie males DO exist (about one in every 3000 male births).

Hi Mystic-Tree, I know tortie males do exist (I agreed with you! My post also mentions chimeras, klinefelter's syndrome - which is an XXY genotype), mosaicism, somatic mutations). But the kitten that Myskancokatz is talking about - and the one I am talking about is her red boy from a non-red mother, which according to accepted genetic theory is an impossibility. I did find a link with some nice photos of tortie boys - http://tortietom.nidoba.nl/tortiete.html - Pretty Boy Floid has to be the most unique, a white, red and blue boy! :D

Myskancokatz, I am so sorry to hear what happened to the little boy :-( How awful for you to have to go through that.

I do agree with Rich that while things outside the accepted genetic theory do happen, it is prudent to assume they won't - I think genetics can be hard enough to follow without worrying about it breaking its own rules! lol

[myskancokatz]

Hi Mystic-Tree, I know tortie males do exist (I agreed with you! My post also mentions chimeras, klinefelter's syndrome - which is an XXY genotype), mosaicism, somatic mutations). But the kitten that Myskancokatz is talking about - and the one I am talking about is her red boy from a non-red mother, which according to accepted genetic theory is an impossibility. I did find a link with some nice photos of tortie boys - http://tortietom.nidoba.nl/tortiete.html - Pretty Boy Floid has to be the most unique, a white, red and blue boy! :D

Myskancokatz, I am so sorry to hear what happened to the little boy :-( How awful for you to have to go through that.

I do agree with Rich that while things outside the accepted genetic theory do happen, it is prudent to assume they won't - I think genetics can be hard enough to follow without worrying about it breaking its own rules! lol
****

Thanks for that link Toyah, I loved the photo and really enjoyed the article on Floid. Truely a one of it would seem:)

Finding the little one in the way I did, was pretty horrific to say the least but thankfully none of the others were touched:(

Agree with you wholeheartedly that we accept the norms of genetics as our guidelines to work within, as they rarely mutate, go wrong. Although when they do, it is exceeding interesting eg the Cornish, Devon LaPerm rex, plus the ones you have mentioned.